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na-deinen : Techniek

W124Club.nl

Alles over de Mercedes W124

Het is nu vr maart 29, 2024 2:30 pm

na-deinen

Alle techniek (mechanisch, elektronisch) zaken horen hier thuis.

na-deinen

Berichtdoor Tvdnosterum » vr sep 13, 2019 3:46 pm

hoi hoi,

onze witte Mercedes, 200TD, combi (een W124 volgens mij, 2L diesel) deint erg na.

Hij blijft ook met belading netjes op niveau, en veren doet 'ie goed. té goed...
Het veren stopt niet.

We gebruiken de auto in Portugal, en daar is het heuvelachtig.
Als we door een dal rijden op de snelweg, zakt de auto in, op het diepste punt van de weg (so far so good) komt weer omhoog (ook nog goed) maar blijf daarna op en neer gaan. zakt in, weer omhoog, zakt in en weer omhoog. keer of 5, en dan is er weer rust. tot de volgende heuvel of dal.

de auto trekt niet naar links of rechts, maakt geen knallende geluiden, staat keurig vlak in stilstand.
Maar... deint na.

Lijkt dat het mis is bij de schokbrekers. Dat is mijn gevoel. Verschillende Portugese garagebedrijven zeggen verschillende dingen.
De term veerbollen komt ook veel naar voren. maar zorgen die ook voor demping? of zijn die vooral voor niveau?
of kan het zijn dat de regeling van die bollen overstuur is?

Kunnen jullie een route aangeven? waar moet ik beginnen? wat te testen?

Zouden graag blijven rijden met 'de witte'. zoals we onze oude station altijd liefkozend noemen.
Tvdnosterum
 


Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor Bram Jansen » vr sep 13, 2019 10:09 pm

Staat de auto ook ingezakt als hij een tijdje stil heeft gestaan. Een nacht bijvoorbeeld. Of als je gewicht achterin hebt, blijft hij dan ingezakt?
Moeilijk op afstand maar het gas lijkt uit de bollen :o in dat geval heb je twee nieuwe bollen nodig.
Is niet echt een grote catastrofe.
Bram Jansen
 


Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor Tvdnosterum » vr sep 13, 2019 11:03 pm

Auto staat keurig omhoog. Ook na een nacht. Ook na een week. Ook met belading. Ook zonder...
Tvdnosterum
 


Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor Harolds » za sep 14, 2019 7:23 am

Wanneer een auto meer dan 2 keer na-deint na een hobbel, heeft het er inderdaad alle schijn van dat de schokdempers aan het einde van hun leven zijn...
Visuele controle op lekkage is zelf te doen, en anders zijn er testbanken om schokbrekers te testen (althans in NL).
Harolds
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Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor Gombal » za sep 14, 2019 9:18 am

Een station heeft niveau regeling. Op de motor zit een pomp (voorzijde cilinderkop), 2 leidingen naar achteren, niveauregelklepje boven de achteras, aan elke kant een veerbol (stalen bol, waar een rubberen membraan in zit, aan 1 zijde gevuld met gas, aan andere zijde de olie) en 2 speciale schokdempers.

Als het gas uit de veerbollen is dan gaat hij niet deinen maar wordt de achterkant keihard, je zal elk hobbeltje voelen.

Om te testen of je niveauregelklepje werkt, auto uit, flink wat gewicht achterin leggen of met een paar man in de kofferbak gaan zitten, auto starten en de achterkant zal dan omhoog moeten komen, misschien moet je hiervoor wat gas geven.

In je voorraadvaatje zit een filter, zou je ook eens kunnen bekijken, weet niet of de olie ooit ververst is.
Natuurlijk kan je pompje ook op zijn, is een schotten pompje en als de olie nog nooit ververst is zouden de schotjes natuurlijk ook versleten kunnen zijn en bouwt de pomp geen druk meer of niet genoeg op.
Zit er überhaupt nog olie in het systeem? Zijn de schokdempers lek, zonder olie zul je ook een deinende auto krijgen, dan valt er niets meer regelen ;) .
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Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor JantjeV8 » za sep 14, 2019 9:25 am

Een T-model W124 heeft achter geen schokdempers, althans niet in gebruikelijke vorm. Dat zijn eigenlijk hydraulische cilinders. De demping komt vooral van de bollen.

U geeft aan: auto blijft deinen.
Dan kan ik u met zekerheid zeggen dat de veerbollen NIET defect zijn. Het enige wat de veerbollen inwendig hebben, is een stuk rubber. Dat rubber werkt als elastiek. Is dat gescheurd, is de ruimte om te dempen ook gevuld met olie en is de dempende werking weg. Als de veerbol dus defect is, wordt de auto keihard, echt irritant hard en hobbelig. Alsof je over een wasbord rijdt.

Mijn diagnose bij uw beschrijving gaat meer richting de nivoregelaar, een klein component wat nabij de achteras is gemonteerd, en met een heveltje aan de achteras zelf is verbonden. Dat heveltje bediend dat hydraulisch componentje aan de hand van de stand van de achteras. In dat componentje zitten een paar schuifjes die afgedicht worden met O-ringen, echt inwendig in dat ding. Het is te repareren, nieuw is het denk ik niet verkrijgbaar of onbetaalbaar, 2e hands is het goed te vinden.
Vervangen van dat ding stelt niet veel voor, voorzichtig zijn met de aluminium schroefdraad, je draait het zo kapot. Voor de rest niet moeilijk. Ontluchten doet het systeem zichzelf. Olieopvangbakje wel gebruiken, het systeem wil leeg lopen als je dat ding los schroeft.
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Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor Ian » za sep 14, 2019 5:49 pm

Mijn T stuiterde ook erg. Dit was opgelost na het vervangen van de veerbollen.
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Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor JosW124 » za sep 14, 2019 10:41 pm

Verdomme, en dat zeg ik niet gauw, maar Richard, waar heb je deze wijsheid vandaan man?
Werkelijk, ik ben verrast, en tevens blij want het geeft mij meer duidelijkheid omtrent het gehele plaatje omtrent het achterveersysteem van onze combi's, waarvoor hartelijk dank!

Jos, France.
Geluk is een oude Mercedes met een volle tank.
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Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor Gombal » zo sep 15, 2019 8:26 am

Het verdwijnen van gas uit de bollen zal gecorrigeerd worden door de pomp druk, dus olie. Anders zou er bij het kapot zijn van de veerbollen (is totale afwezigheid van gas) ook geen stuiterend gedrag optreden. Op dat moment is de hele veerbol gevuld met olie en zoals bekend is vloeistof niet samendrukbaar.
Hier nog een paar plaatjes van de binnenkant van een veerbol, het boortje is om te laten zien waar en hoe klein het gaatje is, het gaatje zat er dus al!
Je ziet aan het rubber ook dat het membraan gekreukeld ingedrukt wordt bij invoeren, daarom ontstaan op die plekken de gaslekkages.
Indien er een beetje gas verdwijnt zal het niveauregelklepje dit corrigeren omdat de "schokdemper" verder in zal zakken.
Om die reden zal een kapotte veerbol dus ook geen deinen veroorzaken.
Ik zou hier bij deinen ook niet mee beginnen met vervangen, zeker niet omdat ze niet goedkoop zijn en ook niet op een makkelijk bereikbare plek zitten.
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Gombal
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Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor Ton200TE » ma sep 16, 2019 6:01 am

Toevallig zag ik eergisteren op weg van Frankfurt naar Stuttgart ook een combi dansen op de weg. Had het nog nooit zo erg gezien, leek me levensgevaarlijk en ook zeer oncomfortabel.

Misschien dat de Mercedes dealer er niks meer aan doet, maar een goede Citroën specialist zou dit klusje toch moeten kunnen klaren? Een groot deel van de Citroëns uit de jaren 70, 80 en 90 had een dergelijk systeem.
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Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor Bram Jansen » ma sep 16, 2019 8:07 am

Een wat oudere Citroën monteur kan aan alle autos sleutelen, een Mercedes monteur niet altijd aan een Citroën of andere auto's, dus op naar de echte Citroën monteur :lol:
Bram Jansen
 


Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor JosW124 » ma sep 16, 2019 11:57 am

Ik weet intussen wel dat de garage's hier van onze Benzen afblijven, les bricoleurs.
Gewoon omdat ze de 'feeling' missen.
En het feit dat het automobielen van Duitse makelij zijn, doet vaak in hun kop de deur al dicht.
Als het niet Frans is, deugt het niet want het is anders.
Ik heb laatst nog aan een oudere Peugeot 604 V6 gewerkt, zelfde prijsklasse als de Benzen van toen, maar qua techniek gelijk playmobiel.....

Jos.
Geluk is een oude Mercedes met een volle tank.
JosW124
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Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor Facelift 93 » ma sep 16, 2019 4:56 pm

Hallo

hier word gesproken over oudere wagens maar de W210 had toch nog steeds exact hetzelfde systeem ?
en de W211 ? weet iemand of en wanneer het systeem is afgeschaft ? hebben de huidige combi 's nog
zo'n systeem of allang niet meer, met het oog op onderdelen nog nieuw verkrijgbaar of niet. De veerbollen
zijn aftermarket nog steeds te krijgen maar leidingen of regelaar etc?
Facelift 93
 


Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor pierro » ma sep 16, 2019 5:53 pm

@josW124, ook wonende in France, heb ik toch een andere ervaring met de garages, er zijn erbij die echt wel de kennis en ervaring hebben en weten vaak goed hoe bv de KE-jetronic injection werkt en hoe af te stellen, zit namelijk ook in VW en Porsches van dat tijdperk en vooral de Porsches zijn erg populair in mijn streek.
Zelfs mijn Mercedes garage heeft een (wat oudere) monteur die de W124 uit zijn hoofd kent en dus niet verbaast reageerd op mijn specifieke vragen.

Maar het zal wel streek gebonden zijn, dus kan ik niet generaliseren.
What goes around comes around......
pierro
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Re: na-deinen

Berichtdoor JosW124 » ma sep 16, 2019 8:21 pm

Hoi Pierro,

Ja, het zal zeker streekgebonden zijn.
Ik woon in de Franse Ardennen, en na 24 jaar hier dien ik toch te constateren dat ze hier niet erg bijdehand zijn.
Mijn eerste 250TD, alweer een jaar of 15 geleden, had een harde achterkant.
Ik had toen nog geen enkele ervaring met deze automobielen.
Ik bracht deze naar de plaatselijke garage, en die gast heeft ipv het te repareren het hele hydralische achterveringssysteem verwijderd en de schokbrekers vervangen voor gewone.
Later bleek dat het stelstangetje los gekomen was....
Ik heb toen besloten alles gewoon zelf te gaan doen.
Ik heb op deze site dan ook al veel geleerd, ik doe thans al het onderhoud zelf, en dat geeft mij net zoveel plezier als het werk aan mijn Engelse éénpitters.
Ik geniet van elke km die ik rijd met onze combi's, zowel mijn dame als ik willen nooit geen andere auto meer, over duurzaamheid gesproken, 560K en de andere 480, da's toch geweldig? Wagens, eh, automobielen die 10à12 keer de wereld rond zijn gegaan!
Ik denk dat we het er het beste aan doen allemaal onze eigen voertuigen te onderhouden, er een binding mee hebben.
Te vervangen wat er versleten is en je beurten regelmatig doen, da's duurzaam.
Duurzaamheid is namelijk niet een Tesla onder je reet laten schuiven waarvan de meeste opgewekte energie verloren gaat aan het rondzeulen van al die accu's.........

Fijne avond nog, samen,Jos.
Geluk is een oude Mercedes met een volle tank.
JosW124
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